Hold No Punches : Exclusive Interview 20 Years Later
/By Joel E. Gordon & George Beck, Ph.D.
It has been 20 years since 9/11. Blue magazine remembers the sacrifices and the heroes who worked to save us. On Sept. 11, 2001 at 0845 hours American Airlines Flight #11, a Boeing 767, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center in New York City. Then, 18 minutes after the first plane hit, a second Boeing 767, United Airlines Flight 175, struck the south tower. It was clear that America was under attack.
Emerging from tragedy, two leaders arose to take their place in history largely defining their time as New York City’s Mayor and Police Commissioner, Rudy Giuliani and Bernard Kerik. As both led their city and our nation from rescue to recovery, their example of cooperative engagement with all government professionals, agencies and volunteers in bringing together our country for a common cause should forever serve as a model for emergency crisis management.
We know where we have been. We have lived, learned, sacrificed and mourned. The question that remains is will we be able to maintain safety while recapturing patriotism as we move forward to what lies ahead?
The Blue magazine thanks both Rudy Giuliani and Bernard Kerik for this exclusive interview. What follows are their reflections and thoughts…
The BLUE Magazine: Now 20 years later, what is the first memory you have of the morning of 9/11 when you learned the towers were attacked?
Giuliani: The first memory is at breakfast. Patty Varrone, who was the detective on my detail, walked in and whispered in Denny Young’s ear, he was my counsel. I could hear a little of what they were saying. And then Denny repeated it right away and said that a twin-engine plane, they thought a twin-engine plane had hit the north tower and it was very bad. And they knew I would want to get down there right away. We immediately walked out, looked up in the sky, saw a big, beautiful blue sky and I said, probably this isn't an accident—it was either a terrorist attack or it's some form of insane revenge against a business or suicide. That was my first three minutes.
That was quite a message. It was not possible to even imagine that such a tragic event of terrorism could occur on your watch. How were you able to perform your leadership duties in such an efficient and exemplary manner?
Giuliani: I think because it was so big and it was so horrible, you just felt like it was bigger than you and you just had to do the best you could. I remember telling Bernie Kerik at some point when we saw a man jump out the window when we were walking to the fire department command post, that this was much worse than anything we faced before. We didn't have a plan for it. We had 26, 27 plans but we didn't have one for airplanes hitting our buildings like missiles and that we were just going to have to use our best intuition, make judgments, and then just pray to God they come out right.
Kerik: As the police commissioner, I had 55,000 men and women under my command but assisted the mayor in overseeing every city agency for the response rescue recovery and investigation. None of us had time to think about the magnitude or scope of that charge. We did the best we could under the circumstances and I am proud of our accomplishments.
What was learned and can you give us any recommendations that you may have for current leaders based on what we've learned that day?
Giuliani: The first thing you got to do is you've got to say in your head, this is very different. I always treated emergencies like that. I'm thinking about today. It seems like these emergencies, they want to turn into political theater. First thing you got to do is you got to say to yourself, this is real life. This isn't political theater, and you've got to make the right judgment. And you're probably not always going to make the right judgment. But if you aim in the direction of making the right judgment, not the right political one, the right one to save lives and bring the city back, you're probably going to more frequently make the right call than if you get all confused with politics.
In the aftermath of 9/11, the recovery phase, how was that? When you remember, obviously, you saw the worst of it initially and then you're actually seeing what I would consider the worst of it for someone who was actually there looking at it.
Giuliani: It was very hard because some people wanted to recover. Other people didn't want to recover. You were hurting them if you were push- ing them too hard and then others wanted to be pushed. So you had to try to do it very delicately and you had to try to know what audience you were talking to. People are not totally predictable. Well, I'd say they grieve in different ways and they react to things in different ways. I think it's a shame, though, that what we weren't able to preserve is when things happen that are bigger than politics, like that attack, like the pandemic, now we politicize them, whereas then, we were at least one administration away from doing that. It was a better reaction for the country. I mean, the country came out of 9/11 better organized than it was when it went in.
Is today's climate of lawlessness actually conducive to making future terror attacks more likely?
Giuliani: Yeah, no question about it. I mean, I hate to say that, but terrorists feed on weakness. I think those terrorist attacks wouldn't have occurred if Clinton had had a very strong response to Bin Laden. Instead, every time Bin Laden you know, it's terrible to analogize this because this is so meaningless or simple or cute, but it's like a child, you know, the child first grabs the cookie and you don't do anything about it. Then the child grabs two cookies. Then the child knocks over the cookie jar. Then the child breaks that China and child just wants to be told where to stop. And so, you know, he bombed us a couple of times overseas and basically we bombed empty fields. So he had to look at us as a paper tiger. I think Clinton's failure to respond with massive force to protect our Marines or to answer for what happened to our Marines basically didn't give him the idea. He always had the idea and it gave him confidence that he could pull it off. And it was a terrible mistake to do that. It's why Democrats just do it. That's why they create so many wars. They don't know how to be strong. What Biden is doing with China and with Iran. Apparently, he's even relieving some of the sanctions. And I'm telling everybody, just so he can give money to a terrorist state, I don't even get it. But that will convince Iran that we're a paper tiger and China, having met with his deputies and kind of slapped them around, they sort of look at Biden as they probably can't figure out how we elected them. And I know I'm sure Putin must be sitting there thinking, well, they find this guy, must have gone to a nursing home.
Kerik: Up until about five years ago, for the prior 15 years I had said that one of the greatest threats to this country was the enemy that hit us on Sept. 11, 2001, radical Islam. I’ve now changed my mind and I believe one of the greatest threats facing our nation today it’s the infusion of Marxism and socialism. We actually have radical left-wing Marxists elected to the US House of Representatives. I never thought I would see the day.
Government accountability and taking responsibility for caring for our sick and injured first responders resulting from the 9/11 attack has been lacking. Why do you think the government has been so callous in its responsibility in caring for our wounded heroes and their families?
Kerik: One of the things that came out of 9/11 was the reality that city and state agencies and the federal government must take care of those men and women who put themselves in harm’s way. We lost 23 members of my department, 37 members of the port authority Police Department and 343 firefighters. It was essential that the city take care of their families and those that got sick as a result of being at Ground Zero. We’re still fighting that fight and should not be. If you’re going to ask your public servants and first responders to put themselves in harm’s way then you must have the in sight to take care of them should anything go wrong.
Giuliani: I think it's a question of things move on, and it's a shame to say this, but even though there's some downside to not doing it politically, it's not as front of mind as it was then. Politically, there are more important things now for them to pay attention to in their own interests. I'm not saying this in an approving way. I'm saying this because I think this is part of the corruption of American politics. They're all in it for themselves. You don't find too many people in American politics who sit back and first say what's good for the country and then do what's good for the country. The minute they figure out it's going to hurt them, they stop. And if they don't get benefits from it, they stop. So, I mean, the simple answer is that the heat isn't enough. When it heats up, they do little things. But it's a shame to be that way. And it wasn't that way at the beginning. We got everything we asked for from President Bush. We got more than we asked.
Can you recall a memory that you have from being at ground zero, something that you've seen that maybe has stayed with you all these years that still haunts you?
Kerik: The two things that stand out to me about that day, was first arriving at the base of tower one and two and watching dozens of people jump to their death. It was unlike anything I’ve ever seen before and as a police officer you’re usually always in a position to take control but this, it was different. There was no way to stop them from jumping. There was no way to help them. The other thing I remember about that day is 5 o’clock in the afternoon walking into the auditorium and having to meet with the families of the 23 men and women who were missing from the NYPD. Those 23 people died that day but I will always be thankful to their families for their strength and support. They were an inspiration to me and the mayor.
Giuliani: Oh, my goodness. There are a couple. That one that I fixate on the most is seeing the first man jump from the 100th floor because my deputy mayor had told me that people were jumping and I didn't see it right away and I didn't believe it. So when I saw it, I was approaching the fire department command post and I saw a man standing up by the... He was kind of looking out and then he just jumped and it was an incredible experience. I can't even, I can't describe to you. It convinced me that this was a much, much different thing that we have faced before.
How have the continuing deaths and illnesses attributable to the aftermath of the World Trade Center towers collapsing affected you personally?
Giuliani: I think it's terrible because we got the person who spent most of his time on this was obsessive about it, Deputy Mayor Joe Lhota. We got reports daily about the quality of the smoke and the debris, particularly from the EPA, but also from other agencies. And he published them daily. And any time there was a slight aberration, he'd be right on top of it. So it's hard to figure out who to blame for it with a negligence in not doing the right tests. Or is it possible the tests didn't exist then? We had never had this before. The building had melted and that was releasing all kinds of things. It's not like when anthrax happened, we knew exactly what to do and contained it beautifully. Right. Take Cipro. We had four million Cipro pills, maybe five million. But this, you didn't know it was harming people or in what way it was harming them.
In 20 years how did law enforcement and other first responders go from being viewed as heroes to most Americans to zeros in the eyes of the progressive left and their allies? What has happened to patriotism?
Kerik: Over the last 10 years, the radical left political groups in this country have attacked the police and victimized the thugs and villainized the cops. In my opinion, they’re all cowards. On 9/11 and in the aftermath, they ran like cockroaches when you turn on the lights. They were scared to death, but it was the men and women first responders who did what had to be done just like they do on a daily basis today. The people who criticize them and try to villainize them are hypocrites because they would never do the job of a first responder. They don’t have the courage. It’s a shame that other politicians don’t call them out for their hypocrisy and lunacy.
Giuliani: It's been taken over by communists. I believe that these people either are marching us toward communism knowingly or they're being brainwashed and propagandized. And I think this has been a plan that's been going on for a long, long time. I never would have believed it five years ago. But everything I see I can read about in 1858 with Karl Marx, everything they're doing, tearing down our statues, tearing down our history, making us hate this country, dishonoring the flag. First thing that Mao did in China was to cancel out Chinese history. You know how the Chinese culture is so important. It was to the Chinese people. The Chinese communists don't allow a Chinese culture because that was all bad. Only socialism is good and they're trying to get rid of as many religious people as possible, the Falun Gong, the Uighurs. So I think that disrespect for law enforcement comes right out of Marxism, translated by the three Black Lives Matter Marxists, and then the former Black Panthers police killers who are advising. It's the biggest and most dangerous con job in the history of the country. The organization is a hard-core Marxist organization that spends most of its time not worrying about black lives, but trying to destroy the American family. They don't believe in families. They feel that families subjugate women and fathers are useless. They want to do away with our religion because God has no place in socialism or communism, and God is used to suppress people and they have no use for the police because the police, I don't know what they think, put innocent people in jail? Well, they don't want the police, but they want to take over… So I don't understand why anyone buys this communism or socialism thing. It's a complete con job for Putin to be the richest man in Russia or Xi, the richest man in China or. You name it, I mean, they. They live much more opulent lives than capitalists. But people fall for it because they're very good at brainwashing and now they possess the media.
Where are we headed as a nation over the next 20 years?
Giuliani: We're going to find out in 2022. I have the feeling a little bit of evidence in terms of polling that supports it, but not completely. I have a feeling that there's going to be a revulsion by the American people, unlike ever before. In America, I didn't think you could censor, you know, enormously relevant information that the president could run for president United States such as taking bribes for 30 years. And it's provable by the words of his son in Texas quoting. For the last 30 years. I pay all the expenses of the family and I got to give 50 percent of my income to Pop. So since 50 percent of his income is money he's getting from are, in many cases, crooks, what the hell is his father getting the money for, doing favors for? None of the people that they get money from are stupid, by the way. It's not like this is some kind of a naive charity scam. They're getting money from some of the most dangerous people in the world like a member of Ukrainian organized crime who knows how many people he's killed. The wife of the mayor of Moscow, she deposed him. She got rid of him, the mayor. And became very close to Putin, who the hell knows how many people she's had killed? I mean, and he's got his drug addict son dealing with them? No wonder the guy became a drug addict. I have to believe if you read, any of that hard drive, which I have all of it, you've got to say to yourself who pulled this off; who pulled this con job loss on us? How do we put a guy in the White House who's amassed 30 to 40 million in bribes using his family as bagmen, and is clearly suffering from dementia. Clearly, I mean, when I go visit my ex-mother-in-law in the nursing home, half the people there were functioning better than him. You've got to be a fool not to see it. You've got to just pretend. He can't remember the Pledge of Allegiance. Oh, yeah, Joe's fine. He just can't complete that sentence. He forgot what he was saying. Oh, yeah, Joe's fine. He's president of the United States and the Democrats don't care about this country enough to put up a sane man for president? I think what has happened is the Democrat Party at the very top became completely corrupted by the Clintons. And they're all in it for money; you look at the money Pelosi's made. They all made millions. And their long and pretty useless public servants. But they became billionaires. So we're in a difficult spot. And basically, we've got to kick, we've got to get rid of Pelosi. I think she's a menace. Wouldn't be bad to turn back to send it to and then have a real president in 2024, either Trump or somebody like him.
Commissioner, where is law enforcement headed over the next 20 years?
Kerik: As for law enforcement over the next 20 years, it’s really going to be dependent on the political movement in this country. If the socialists and Marxists are able to take control of the country, the United States of America as we have known it and it was created will be no more. We need leadership in the House and Senate and White House that’s going to abide by the constitution and enforce the laws of our land without political agendas behind them.
Can you please speak directly to the families who lost loved ones on 9/11 and in the aftermath? What is your message to them?
Kerik: People have commended the mayor and I and called us heroes. I look at it this way. I am no more of a hero than those who ran into those buildings on that day, some of whom did not return. They are the real heroes. It was my honor and privilege to lead them in what I would consider the greatest rescue mission in the history of our nation. They took 20 to 25,000 people out of those buildings and the surrounding area and evacuated more than 1 million people out of southern Manhattan into the four boroughs and New Jersey. God bless all of you. And may the memory of your loved ones--our true heroes--never be forgotten.
Giuliani: My message to them is that their loved ones saved America. The goal of the Islamic terrorists was to crush the American spirit, not just to kill 10 million, three million. Their aim was probably much larger, 12 to 15 million. But due to the evacuation efforts, that was thwarted somewhat. But still, it was terrible. So their whole purpose is to break our spirit, to demoralize us. We have it within our power to make sure that doesn't happen. We have it in our power to make sure that, you know, we were chosen to survive.
A special message from Bernard Kerik
In the years since the attacks on America on September 11, 2001, Mayor Giuliani and I have been called heroes for our service and for the heroics by the men and women of the NYPD, FDNY, and PAPD.
I was honored to lead the 55,000 men and women of the NYPD, but I could never have done so without my two pillars of strength, my chief of the department, Joseph Esposito, and my first deputy commissioner, Joseph Dunne. They were at my side in the best and worst of times.
I have always said, and will say until the day I die, my executive staff was the best in the history of the NYPD.
Their dedication, perseverance, and unshaken courage in the face of death resulted in the most successful rescue mission in the history of our country, evacuating between 20 and 25,000 people out of the World Trade Center and immediate area. We also evacuated more than one million people out of southern Manhattan into the four boroughs and New Jersey coastline.
The city of New York, and our country owes them a debt of gratitude that bears no limits.
Leading them, and serving with them, was the greatest honor in my lifetime.
God bless them all.
